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Author Topic: Chapters 6-10 Discussion (August 6-August 12)  (Read 273 times)

Offline Chibiscuit

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Chapters 6-10 Discussion (August 6-August 12)
« on: August 04, 2018, 10:31:24 AM »
Discussion topic for chapters 6 to 10 :fiver
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Offline Hawkbit

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Re: Chapters 6-10 Discussion (August 6-August 12)
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2018, 01:21:04 AM »
FYI, I will be on vacation and not taking my copy of WSD with me.  I will not be part of this section, but plan to pick up with Chapter 11. :)

Offline Chipster-roo

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Re: Chapters 6-10 Discussion (August 6-August 12)
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2018, 01:51:26 AM »
I hope you will have a nice trip Hawkbit :hawkbit2

Chapter 6...it's the blessing story.  The film did it, the series did it.  The film version was a prologue, rather than being told by Dandelion.  And, like Hawkbit pointed out in previous chapters, several lines are copied directly from the book.  Overall, the film version is pretty much identical to the book version, with only a few details left out (mostly related to El-ahrairah's wives).

The series version is told by Dandelion like in the book, but renames El-ahrairah and cuts out even more details.  Overall I prefer the book version.

A few things I want to mention:
Quote
He made all the stars, too, and the world is one of the stars.  He made them by scattering his droppings over the sky and this is why the grass and the trees grow so thick on the world.
So the Earth is just one of Frith's droppings? :hickory This is one of the details cut in the film (also it says that the world is "among" the stars, not one of them)

Quote
when the cow came, he gave her sharp horns
Unfortunately, most farmers these days remove these horns :(

Quote
And every evening, when Frith has done his day's work, and lies calm and easy in the red sky, El-ahrairah and his children and his children's children come out of their holes and feed and play in his sight, for they are his friends and he has promised that they can never be destroyed.
Another passage copied word-for-word in the film.  However, instead of being told in the prologue, this passage is said by Hyzenthlay (or at least the subtitles say it's her) at the very end of the film, just before Hazel's death.
Have you considered making each day count - doing something meaningful each day - instead of letting the days and weeks and months and years fly into oblivion? --Bright Side

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Offline Chibiscuit

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Re: Chapters 6-10 Discussion (August 6-August 12)
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2018, 03:59:10 PM »
Have a nice trip Hawkbit! I'll be away on a little trip this Thursday and Friday as well but I'll do the chapters before or after.

Chapter 6  :el-ahrairah

As Chipster mentioned, both the film and the series did the blessing story so this chapter is in that sense one I remember well enough. I think the story is funny and does its job of explaining certain things about the word so it makes sense to the rabbits. Like why the world is so fertile, why they (rabbits) have strong hindquarters, the sound a swift makes, etc.

Quote
He made all the stars, too, and the world is one of the stars.  He made them by scattering his droppings over the sky and this is why the grass and the trees grow so thick on the world.
So the Earth is just one of Frith's droppings? :hickory This is one of the details cut in the film (also it says that the world is "among" the stars, not one of them)
Earth is just a giant dungball! Its rotation is probably caused by a giant dungbeetle pushing it around! :hedge

Quote
Frith made all the animals and the birds
So... birds aren't animals then...? :kehaar Reminds me of a book I once saw entitled 'Birds and owls' as if owls aren't birds... :owl

Quote
...and they both ate seeds and flies
Poor flies. The only creature to have been dinner since the dawn of creation.

Quote
'He had so many wives that there was no counting them and the wives had so many young that even Frith could not count them[..]and El-ahrairah was the father of them all.' (Bigwig growled appreciatively)
Well then, we certainly know where Bigwig's aspirations lie now :bigwig3

Quote
'Frith could have killed El-ahrairah at once, but he had a mind to keep him in the world, because he needed him to sport and jest and play tricks.
Basically, Frith kept him around for his own amusement. :frith

Quote
El-ahrairah was dancing and mating and boasting
All at the same time?! :woundwort

The chapter ends with the iconic words, starting with 'All the world will be your enemy...' I see this quote pop up a lot so I think it's the one most people remember or know of WSD. The one that stuck with me is something entirely different but I'll mention it when we get to it.

Quote
when the cow came, he gave her sharp horns
Unfortunately, most farmers these days remove these horns :(
Indeed and sadly cows are not the only animals suffering the loss of an integral art of themselves simply for human convenience... :(
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Offline Chibiscuit

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Re: Chapters 6-10 Discussion (August 6-August 12)
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2018, 07:24:38 PM »
Chapter 7 is another really short one. :bark

The foul smell from chapter 5 was indeed the lendri that shows his muzzle this chapter. The first part of the chapter is spent describing the lendri and from this we can know for sure that it is good ol' stripedog.
(In my memory a lendri was a fox but evidently I remembered wrong)

Quote
To him, perplexity was worse than danger; and when he was perplexed he usually grew angry.
I like how we get some deeper insight into Bigwig's character and the reasons why he acts the way he does. I did find it odd actually how suddenly he jumped at Holly earlier so I like that w get some explanation for this.

Hazel is shown once more to be a very smart and perceptive rabbit who clearly knows the sort of rabbit Bigwig is and how to deal with him.

There is also some more mention of Dandelion's speed (he overtakes Bigwig) and the minor character get a small mention but nothing more. But as I have understood it, this will be a trend that will carry on to the end.
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Offline Chipster-roo

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Re: Chapters 6-10 Discussion (August 6-August 12)
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2018, 11:02:56 PM »
I hope you have a nice trip Chib :)

So... birds aren't animals then...? :kehaar
Interesting point.  I hadn't noticed this...

Earth is just a giant dungball! Its rotation is probably caused by a giant dungbeetle pushing it around! :hedge

Poor flies. The only creature to have been dinner since the dawn of creation.

Quote
El-ahrairah was dancing and mating and boasting
All at the same time?! :woundwort
These passages were funny :hannah4 (let's hope he wasn't doing all three at the same time...)



As Chibiscuit points out, chapter 7 is rather short.  There is the brief encounter with the lendri (also seen in the film), and then they arrive at the river; they will cross it in the next chapter.  I don't really have much to say, really :spartina

(In my memory a lendri was a fox but evidently I remembered wrong)
A fox is a "homba" :fox2
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 11:09:33 PM by Chipster-roo »
Have you considered making each day count - doing something meaningful each day - instead of letting the days and weeks and months and years fly into oblivion? --Bright Side

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Offline Acacia Heartstrings

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Re: Chapters 6-10 Discussion (August 6-August 12)
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2018, 03:52:05 PM »


Hazel is shown once more to be a very smart and perceptive rabbit who clearly knows the sort of rabbit Bigwig is and how to deal with him.

There is also some more mention of Dandelion's speed (he overtakes Bigwig) and the minor character get a small mention but nothing more. But as I have understood it, this will be a trend that will carry on to the end.

Although I do not have time to read the book now, I'm happy to participate in the conversation of what they say: tassel

Hazel from the beginning, continuously demonstrates his concern for each of his rabbits and followers. He wants to make the best decisions, so that all survive in his inner desire. What makes it stand out as a born leader. Unconsciously, the others begin to respect him and see him as such, even Bigwig, who is not as foolish as the other rabbits of the Owsla of Sadlenford. '

Dandelion is a cannonball in speed hehehe and the best storyteller. And we can not forget the other Owsla fighters.

And yes, the world is a poop of Frith, we have to give thanks for that    :hannah4      :rabscuttle      :frith     :rabscuttle
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Offline Chipster-roo

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Re: Chapters 6-10 Discussion (August 6-August 12)
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2018, 04:49:52 PM »
You make some valid points Acacia :) Hazel really is the perfect leader for the group, and everyone is useful in their own way :el-ahrairah

And yes, the world is a poop of Frith, we have to give thanks for that    :hannah4      :rabscuttle      :frith     :rabscuttle
:hannah3 :hannah4


Chapter 8, is where they cross the Enborne river.  I have to say that I always forget just how large the river is; I thought it was only maybe one meter or so wide, but it's much larger than that.

Overall, the scene takes place somewhat like in the movie, but with many more details.  The film scene feels rather rushed compared to this.  The book version provides more glimpses into the minds of Hazel and Bigwig.

The most interesting part of the chapter would probably be Blackberry's discovery of the boat.  This is the first time he uses his ability to think outside the box to save the day.  Nobody really understands what is happening except Fiver and, to a lesser extent, Bigwig.



Quote
"I admit it was a good idea," replied Blackberry.  "Let's remember it.  It might come in handy again sometime."
Looks like Fiver isn't the only one who can predict the future :blackberry-buck :glowingfiver

One last thing: the quote.  If I remember correctly, the Bible is one of only two books to be quoted more than once (the other being "The Private Life of the Rabbit").
Have you considered making each day count - doing something meaningful each day - instead of letting the days and weeks and months and years fly into oblivion? --Bright Side

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Offline Chipster-roo

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Re: Chapters 6-10 Discussion (August 6-August 12)
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2018, 07:48:35 PM »
All right, so yeah...chapter 9.

I miss Chib and Hawkbit :(

Hazel shows off his leadership abilities by first going to investigate the area while Bigwig and the others are asleep.  It's also nice to see Silver joins him.

The crow attack is well-written, I think; it seems better than Violet's death in the film.  What I find really interesting, though, is the "Hoi hoi u embleer hrair" line; this is the first line in the book entirely in Lapiné.

Finally, there is the incident with Pipkin's paw, and the thorn.  I like Pipkin and I don't like seeing him suffer, but at least the thron is removed and he is all right.  I don't really understand Speedwell's joke about the notice board though...
Have you considered making each day count - doing something meaningful each day - instead of letting the days and weeks and months and years fly into oblivion? --Bright Side

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Offline Hawkbit

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Re: Chapters 6-10 Discussion (August 6-August 12)
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2018, 12:38:52 AM »
I will catch up tomorrow....hopefully.  We'll see how things go.

Offline Chibiscuit

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Re: Chapters 6-10 Discussion (August 6-August 12)
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2018, 04:58:13 AM »
Just quickly hopping in to say I was unexpectedly unable to do the chapters past weekend so sorry about that (some organizer I am...! :vervain-facepalm) but I'll do them later today. (So I have decided to extend part 2 by a day)

I'll put up the schedule for the next part right now as well.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 05:09:46 AM by Chibiscuit »
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Offline Hawkbit

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Re: Chapters 6-10 Discussion (August 6-August 12)
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2018, 12:02:27 PM »
Chapter 6 - Going back to rabbit religion, I enjoy how the tale of El-ahrairah gives us an idea of how rabbits interpret the gifts they were given by an almighty being.  It partially gives inspiration to the TV series as it explains that rabbits were not always enemies with the elil: they did use to be friends, and it could explain why the rabbits were able to befriend things like a hawk, a mouse, all the different squirrels and hedgehogs--something that certainly was not evident in the book nor the film adaptation.  Never put two and two together that the inspiration could have come from the original tale.

Chapter 7 - Very short, but the thing I took away most from this one is more about how Bigwig thinks - if he cannot "see the straight and the clear, he grows angry".  Its a bit of foreshadowing here how much trouble Bigwig will probably be on the journey, how he doubts and how he will throw his opinions around being former Owsla.  Its evident in the book this will be so, and you sort of catch it in the film version when he berates Fiver at Cowslip's warren when he can't make head or tail of Fiver's rambles. I haven't watched season 1 in a long time to see if Bigwig acts in the same way.

Chapter 8 - Crossing the river gives us a good look at the cleverness of Blackberry. Actually, the book explains that Blackberry gets things basically every other rabbit can't make heads or tails of.  Even Hazel.  If you watch the film, Hazel seems to pick up on the floating wood, but here in the book, he doesn't totally get it.  Only Fiver does.  But in the film, Fiver basically takes no part in the understanding of a floating piece of wood.  Fiver totally thanks Blackberry at the end and says he gets his clever tricks, so Adams clearly is establishing Fiver and Blackberry as the brains of this outfit.  Hazel is simply there to judge everything before him--qualities of a good leader--not necessarily the smartest of the bunch.

Chapter 9 - You see another huge difference between film Hazel and book Hazel when you read chapter 9 about the beanfield.  Book Hazel here is showing just how unprepared and how many things he really doesn't know anything about being a youngling that never had left Sandleford.  If anything, this will show just how much Hazel "grows" by the end of the novel when he's a leader of a warren.  Here, Hazel is just moving about checking things out instead of delegating tasks to other rabbits.  He becomes better at this later in the book of course.  If you watch the film or series, Hazel seems like a natural born leader from the onset, certainly much less uncertain about decisions than what is presented here in the book.  Very peculiar...never noticed the difference in Hazel's true character until now. ;)

Chapter 10 - What I admire about this chapter is that we get back to what I described earlier about Adams' style.  He's good at painting pictures with words and we see more of that in this chapter describing the road, the fields beyond, what Fiver sees miles in the distance as the place for them.  As for the characters, we don't really learn anything new about any one of them, nor sense any growth.  Hazel says he'll look after Fiver but I think we gathered that from the beginning, that Hazel would never abandon his brother.  When you look at what I would call "the bland trio" - Acorn, Hawkbit, and Speedwell in the book, you can see how these are almost forgotten characters in the story.  There's not much to understand about them--no defining personality except that they're there just to be there and make the group bigger.  Its not surprising they were written out of the film entirely, and only Hawkbit shows up in the series but with more character traits, quite unlike his book self.  I don't remember the Bland Trio getting much to do in the book as time goes on either.

Offline Chibiscuit

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Re: Chapters 6-10 Discussion (August 6-August 12)
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2018, 02:38:57 PM »
Chapter 8  :blackberry-buck

Quote
It's crossing they're not going to fancy, unless something frightens them into it.
Hazel's got a small knack at foresight as well it seems. :hazel2 :duster

Quote
Bigwig was about to reply, but Blackberry spoke first.
Quote
He saw Blackberry watching him intently, waiting for his lead and disregarding Bigwig's.
We get our first strong glimpse at Blackberry supporting Hazel's leadership.First by interrupting Bigwig before he could protest and assuaging him and secondly by waiting for Hazel's order instead of following Bigwig's way.

Quote
Hazel could not help noticing, with reluctant admiration, that although Bigwig had lost his temper, he was apparently in no hurry on his own account and seemed less frightened than any of them.
Edit: forgot to add my comment to this but in hindsight, after reading chapter 9, I'd say this is a sort of prelude to Hazel's action in chapter 9. Bigwig is showing himself as brave and loyal and willing to risk his life for the group, even after he's lost his temper and can't think clearly. The last part seems to be something Hazel had not expected.

The most interesting part of the chapter would probably be Blackberry's discovery of the boat.  This is the first time he uses his ability to think outside the box to save the day.  Nobody really understands what is happening except Fiver and, to a lesser extent, Bigwig.
Indeed! And I love that quality of Blackberry a lot! As Hawkbit also mentions, this chapter clearly establishes Blackberry and Fiver as the brains of the group. I think Bigwig would never think of it himself, nor really grasp the basic concept of it, but once he is shown what to do, he can immediately act and do it.

I was actually a bit surprised at how hard Hazel doesn't get it. Instead he thinks Blackberry (whom he acknowledges as the cleverest rabbit) has gone barking mad...!

Also
Quote
Most of them had not understood Blackberry's discovery of the raft and at once forgot it.
Does that mean they forgot how they all got across as soon as it had happened? Even Pipkin, who had been on the raft? That seems a bit weird.
(This actually reminds me of schoolwork where you remember things much easier when you understand them)

Quote
'I admit it was a good idea,' replied Blackberry. 'Let's remember it.  It might come in handy again sometime.'
Blackberry giving himself a pat on the back.
 :blackberry-buck I have to admit that my idea was brilliant!
« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 04:03:42 PM by Chibiscuit »
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Offline Chibiscuit

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Re: Chapters 6-10 Discussion (August 6-August 12)
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2018, 03:08:10 PM »
It partially gives inspiration to the TV series as it explains that rabbits were not always enemies with the elil: they did use to be friends, and it could explain why the rabbits were able to befriend things like a hawk, a mouse, all the different squirrels and hedgehogs--something that certainly was not evident in the book nor the film adaptation.  Never put two and two together that the inspiration could have come from the original tale.
I had never considered that possibility myself either but it would make sense.

A fox is a "homba" :fox2
:vervain-facepalm Ah yes, of course! How could I forget that?

Chapter 9  :silver

Quote
Then his sense of adventure and mischief prompted him. He would go himself and bring back some news before they even knew that he had gone. That would give Bigwig something to bite on.
It's interesting to see this side of Hazel. Instead of choosing the most suitable rabbit to reconnoitre, he gives into the mood to go himself. More importantly, he wants to show up Bigwig. I guess he really does feel threatened by Bigwig and fear the other might become leader instead thus making Hazel act less leader-like in his eagerness to appear a good leader.
Kinda ironic, really.

As Hawkbit mentioned, there's clear evidence of Hazel not being a flawless born leader from the start (despite already having shown his talent as one) and I actually prefer this portrayal.

The crow attack is well-written, I think; it seems better than Violet's death in the film.  What I find really interesting, though, is the "Hoi hoi u embleer hrair" line; this is the first line in the book entirely in Lapiné.
I agree, the fight with the crow was interesting and it was nice to see Silver get a bit of page-time. I wish we'd gotten more Lapiné sentences already but I look forward to more.

I don't really understand Speedwell's joke about the notice board though...
I think he meant that the thorn was so big that it looked like one of the posts holding up a notice board? So if they collected some more they could put up a notice board of their own?

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Re: Chapters 6-10 Discussion (August 6-August 12)
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2018, 05:09:38 PM »
Chapter 10   :glowingfiver

Quote
'How's the paw?' said Hazel. Pipkin put it to the ground. Then he stood on it.
'It feels much better,' he said. 'I think I shall be able to go as well as the others now. They won't leave me behind, will they?'
Hazel's rubbed his nose behind Pipkin's ear. 'No one's going to leave anyone else behind,' he said. 'If you had to stay, I'd stay with you. But don't pick up any more thorns, Hlao-roo, because we may have to go a long way.'
I thought this passage was really cute.  :pipkin

Quote
The wind [...] was reassuring, carrying only the scents of evening dew, may and cow-dung.
Ah yes nothing more reassuring than the smell of cow-dung! :frith

Quote
He did not wait to hear what Speedwell looked like.
I thought this was funny for some reason.

We see Hazel's getting annoyed at not knowing something that Bigwig seems to take for granted but at least he is wise enough to let Bigwig explain roads to him.

The description of the surroundings is beautifully done. It paints another pretty picture. I also liked the way the scene with Hazel and Fiver was written, what with occasionally getting a glimpse of Bigwig's shouts down below.

Hazel says he'll look after Fiver but I think we gathered that from the beginning, that Hazel would never abandon his brother.
I don't doubt Hazel would never abandon his brother but in this case it felt like he also wanted to prevent the others from overhearing some of Fiver's visions, like the one he had just had, as it could possibly lead to more trouble within the group. So telling Fiver to come to him when he feels one of his fits come on is also a precaution for him having them near another rabbit who might not take it so well as Hazel.

Lastly, we get a glimpse at some more Lapiné. With hrududu being a tractor or any other motorized vehicle (mentioned last chapter) and a yona being hedgehog. Then they talk of hurudil and yonil so I assume the suffix -il is to indicate plural. Like in elil as well (though I hadn't noticed it then :pipkin2).

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