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Author Topic: So... what did exactly happen to Vervain?  (Read 1177 times)

Offline Claws

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So... what did exactly happen to Vervain?
« on: December 29, 2014, 02:06:19 AM »
(I haven't been able to find a topic like this, but feel free to merge if such topic exists and do accept my apologies).

If I recall correctly, Vervain ran off in fear at the end of the series but... what do you think happened to him? I don't think he would try to join Watership Down nor Moss's new warren, and Darkhaven seems way too dangerous for him (even The Speaker of the Past seems like an unbeatable opponent for him to face -man, that's sad-).

I have always thought that this character had a ton of redeeming quality just waiting to kick in, but it feels like it was never the time for that to happen.

So... what do you think? Where did he go? That Watership Down area seemed to be full of dangerous creatures and he had already demonstrated an incapacity to fight that kind of enemies (plus, it was night -but then again, he survived two of the worst warrens without a scratch-).
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 02:09:21 AM by Silverweed's Claws »

Offline Darkling Nocturnal

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So... what did exactly happen to Vervain?
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2014, 07:59:18 AM »
When Watership Down was cheering after Hazel's speech about leaving Watership Down (and Hawkbit says, he stays and fight - like everyone else does), Granite says something like "They don't seem to have fear. It sounds glorious to me..."

IIRC, Woundwort interrupts him and says something like "They fear me, because I am the end of everything, they believe in".

So I think, that almost everybody, who fights on Woundwort's side, fights with him because he fears him. After Woundwort is gone, the Darkhaven survivors (including Vervain) could live another life, without war and fighting. I can imagine, they created another warren, away from Darkhaven, to live in peaceful coexistence with Watership Down, Redstone and Moss' Warren (wherever it may located).
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 07:59:55 AM by Darkling Nocturnal »


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Offline Claws

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So... what did exactly happen to Vervain?
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2014, 02:05:18 PM »
That's a really cool theory that really calls for a deeper representation (C'mon, I'd have LOVED to see that in the actual series).

Only problem I see with that is that... I don't really "see" Vervain living alongside that group of rabbits without a rank and stuff, but I'm sure he could work something out.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 02:07:30 PM by Silverweed's Claws »

Offline Darkling Nocturnal

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So... what did exactly happen to Vervain?
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2014, 03:59:03 PM »
Well, the rabbits in Darkhaven had only one raison d'ĂȘtre: Waiting for the return of the "Dark One" (Woundwort). IIRC, Campion said to Spartina, that there's a lot of fighting in Darkhaven. And Spartina answered: "That's how we prepare. For the arrival of the Dark One".

So without Woundwort, there's no reason to fight ;)


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Offline Myrkin

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So... what did exactly happen to Vervain?
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2014, 10:31:58 PM »
I imagine that Woundwort's loss and almost complete destruction of his army would be a pretty traumatic experience for the remaining rabbits of Darkhaven. Think about it. They had been preparing for the return of Dark One, who would lead them to glory (and maybe to better living conditions) and he did. Then he took the whole army of Darkhaven to fight a war against Watership Down, which would surely end up in great victory and it nearly did.

However, after a few days Granite and Vervain return (maybe with a few other surviving warriors) and they tell a tale of defeat at the paws of Black Rabbit of Inle. Many rabbits would find that hard to believe at first. After all, who ever heard of Black Rabbit actively intervening in the matters of the living? He is supposed to only take dead or dying rabbits to afterlife, not fight in rabbits' wars. Some may disbelieve survivor's tale of defeat entirely, expecting Woundwort and the rest of warriors to return eventually. Some may question survivors' honor and call them cowards who run away from battle. Some may believe Woundwort lost, but think he was defeated by Watershippers, while the story about Black Rabbit coming down to destroy Darkhaven army is just a mad talk of battle-shocked survivors.

Most rabbits of Darkhaven would probably wait a few days, hoping that their warriors will return, or they would send a Wide Patrol to confirm or refute survivors' tale. Either way, it would eventually sink in them that Woundwort and warriors are truly gone. Now, Darkhaven might not be a place full of sunshine, rainbows and smiles, but surely those remaining had some friends (or maybe favorite Battle Pit rivals) and/or mates amongst those who stopped running. There would be a lot of mourning and despair in those days. Many would lose their faith in Darkhaven, because the prophecy that promised glory turned out to be a lie.  

After that phase of grief, other feelings would come up to the surface, like fear and confusion. Darkhaveners would remember that rabbits from Watership Down are still out there and they would fear that Watershippers are going to attack Darkhaven in revenge. This would partly feed their confusion. They would be asking themselves whether they should stay in the warren or run away? Should their continue to wage war on WSD on their own or should they try to make peace with outsiders? Perhaps some rabbits would claim that Woundwort wasn't the one that prophecy spoke of and so they all should keep waiting and prepare for the return of "true" Dark One. If Darkhaven doesn't fell apart and if Watershippers don't invite the remaining rabbits to join their own warren, then somebody in Darkhaven will become a leader as long as they will be able to answer confidently one question: what do we do now?

That rabbit will have to give Darkhaven a new goal and inspire hope. Personally, I think that the Speaker of the Past or one of her students might be best suited for that task. They know Darkhaven's history, which can be used as source of inspiration for remaining rabbits. As storytellers they are likely to be a good speakers and one of them may have enough charisma to convince others to her vision and lead Darkhaven into a new future. Of course, one of the surviving warriors might become a new Chief Rabbit by winning fights in Battle Pit, but after spending most of their lives on waiting for arrival of Dark One, they might not be used to thinking/worrying about long-time future. What is more, they will be pretty demoralized after their defeat at Watership Down, so the new warrior Chief might end up doing nothing or he could run the warren the same way it was run before the return of Woundwort, even if that might not make as much sense anymore.

To sum it up: this is going to be a hard time for Darkhaven and there are many possible directions the warren can go from that point. They can scatter around; then can join Watership Down peacefully; they can live day to day, going through the motions and waiting for next Dark one who will make everything better; they can change some of their ways and try to build a new future for themselves; and so on... It all depends on what kind of rabbit becomes their new leader.

I could even imagine Spartina and Bigwig going to Darkhaven, becoming Chiefs and bringing remaining rabbits to some better place to found a new warren. Then again, Darkhaveners might not be very accepting of enemy Captain of Owsla and a traitor as their new leaders, so that scenario is pretty unlikely to happen. ;)

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Offline Claws

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So... what did exactly happen to Vervain?
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2014, 12:18:13 AM »
That's amazing, Myrkin!

I really like that scenario that you have proposed, and I think their fear about WSD taking revenge is quite founded.

I wonder how many of them actually survived (or stayed in the warren while the troops were fighting). Darkhaven truly deserved an extra couple of episodes (I mean, Efrafa had some closing to its story).
« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 12:18:55 AM by Silverweed's Claws »

Offline Keith

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So... what did exactly happen to Vervain?
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2014, 02:26:18 AM »
I don't know about Vervain going back to Darkhaven, I think that's one of the last places he'd want to go back to.
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Offline Myrkin

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So... what did exactly happen to Vervain?
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2014, 12:50:45 PM »
Quote from: Quote:on 
That's amazing, Myrkin!

Thank you, Claws. :)


Quote from: Quote:on 
I don't know about Vervain going back to Darkhaven, I think that's one of the last places he'd want to go back to.

Well... He knows locations of three warrens. One belongs to his enemies, one is a deathtrap and one is a child of Mordor and Sparta. I don't think there is any nice place he can go to, unless Watershippers forgive him his involvement in the war or unless he stumbles upon Maze Warren or the place where Moss and Efrafans went to.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2014, 12:51:16 PM by Myrkin »
"My heart has joined the thousand, for my friend stopped running today." - Hazel

Pessimist sees a dark tunnel. Optimist sees a light in the tunnel. Realist sees the light of coming train. And the train driver sees three idiots standing on the track.

Offline Darkling Nocturnal

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So... what did exactly happen to Vervain?
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2014, 01:13:52 PM »
Quote from: Quote:on 
one is a deathtrap and one is a child of Mordor and Sparta
:spit

I query whetherVervain would be happy seeing Moss again (however, Moss might like it) :D

He may find luck in Buttercup's warren, since no one there ever heard about Efrafa before.

After his martial "KILL'EM ALL!!!", it might be hard for the Watershippers to forgive him. On the other side, he was quite good in swinging the lead :D so Fiver might interpret, that he has  just been acting under the influence of Woundwort.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2014, 01:14:48 PM by Darkling Nocturnal »


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So... what did exactly happen to Vervain?
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2014, 03:17:29 PM »
Quote from: Quote:on 
I query whether Vervain would be happy seeing Moss again (however, Moss might like it) :D

He might like it in friendly way or "I will enjoy making you miserable" way? :D
"My heart has joined the thousand, for my friend stopped running today." - Hazel

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Offline Darkling Nocturnal

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So... what did exactly happen to Vervain?
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2014, 04:41:09 PM »
The second way :D

That reminds me to Captain Holly:

"Oh I wish to meet Vervain"
(Fiver) "You yould help Vervain, Holly?"
"I didn't say I help him. I just want to meet him!"
:D


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Offline Myrkin

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So... what did exactly happen to Vervain?
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2014, 05:16:53 PM »
To be honest, I've never understood Holly in that scene. He didn't meet Vervain (as far as I remember), so he couldn't have any personal reasons to hate him, right? Unless those two had interaction in some deleted scene.
"My heart has joined the thousand, for my friend stopped running today." - Hazel

Pessimist sees a dark tunnel. Optimist sees a light in the tunnel. Realist sees the light of coming train. And the train driver sees three idiots standing on the track.

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So... what did exactly happen to Vervain?
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2014, 05:22:02 PM »
Maybe, he heard enough from Bigwig. And maybe his mind is likely battle joyous like Bigwig's.


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Offline Claws

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So... what did exactly happen to Vervain?
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2014, 05:23:03 PM »
Quote from: Myrkin on Dec 31 2014, 10:17:29 AM
Quote from: Quote:on 
I query whether Vervain would be happy seeing Moss again (however, Moss might like it) :D

He might like it in friendly way or "I will enjoy making you miserable" way? :D

IF Vervain was going to re-join his old comrades, he would have to start from the very bottom... not as a slave (because the Efrafans don't have that anymore) but almost.

But, IIRC, Moss did empathize with Vervain after he lost his rank.

« Last Edit: December 31, 2014, 05:23:56 PM by Silverweed's Claws »

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So... what did exactly happen to Vervain?
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2014, 06:47:53 PM »
Quote from: Quote:on 
But, IIRC, Moss did empathize with Vervain after he lost his rank.

No, he didn't exactly. He thought, Vervain was stark raving mad.

Moss (after Vervain reached his warren): "Look, what we got here, guys. Where's your Hedgewizard, Vervain? Having a tea party with the flower hedgehog? Or is he swimming with the grouse?"


Kneel down before the greatness of Darkling's dark ... ... ... Darkness!!!
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