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Author Topic: General Woundwort = Adolf Hitler?  (Read 6816 times)

Offline Strifer

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General Woundwort = Adolf Hitler?
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2016, 03:52:07 AM »
Hmmm, now that you bring that up it does make sense, mistercynical. Remember, however, that North Korea's founder Kim Il-sung was buddies with Stalin and the Soviet Union. So much so that in the 1960s and 70s N. Korea was actually doing far better South Korea in terms of wealth and prosperity. (then the USSR dissolved in 1991 and N. Korea's economy collapsed)
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 03:53:18 AM by Strifer »
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Offline mistercynical

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General Woundwort = Adolf Hitler?
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2016, 06:53:50 PM »
Oh, I'm aware of that.

North Korea was prosperous t during the Soviet era, just like Efrafa was prosperous during Woundwart's rule - though over time conditions deteriorated. Most of Woundwart's power comes from his associate with the rebuilding of Efrafa - as I recall, he wasn't the first chief of Efrafa.

Anyway, my connection between Efrafa and N. Korea is purely hypothetical - North Korea wasn't on the minds of the public in the early 70s when the book was published, so this is merely food for thought.
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Offline Hammy

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General Woundwort = Adolf Hitler?
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2016, 07:17:35 PM »
I like the comparison to Orwell's 1984 more than anything. Efrafa and General Woundwort aren't precisely analogous to any particular dictatorship or police state, though, you can make comparisons to Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union or however many other totalitarian setups. It's a nightmare, a theoretical, cautionary, and timeless take on a society gone horribly awry. A tale of what happens when you give up too much of your freedom and independent thought in exchange for ultimately frivolous safety out of fear.

The fact that you can make a really close comparison with North Korea now just shows that Efrafa is still a very relevant idea to be reading about. That's what I think matters.

Now this has me thinking about the Warren of the Shining Wires and how they'd fit in to this kind of analogy. Something more focused on giving up cultural identity, perhaps. Just something to ponder.

Offline mistercynical

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General Woundwort = Adolf Hitler?
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2016, 09:24:17 PM »
Quote from: Hammy on Apr 13 2016, 03:17:35 PM
I like the comparison to Orwell's 1984 more than anything. Efrafa and General Woundwort aren't precisely analogous to any particular dictatorship or police state, though, you can make comparisons to Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union or however many other totalitarian setups. It's a nightmare, a theoretical, cautionary, and timeless take on a society gone horribly awry. A tale of what happens when you give up too much of your freedom and independent thought in exchange for ultimately frivolous safety out of fear.

The fact that you can make a really close comparison with North Korea now just shows that Efrafa is still a very relevant idea to be reading about. That's what I think matters.

Now this has me thinking about the Warren of the Shining Wires and how they'd fit in to this kind of analogy. Something more focused on giving up cultural identity, perhaps. Just something to ponder.
Bingo. Totally agree with you.

And Cowslip's warren? That's, to me, the most interesting and more unique case for a society. There's a term to describe this, thanks to TVtropes:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TownWithADarkSecret

"Town with a Dark Secret" is fitting for the warren of the shining wire in terms of the plot (and WSD is even quoted as an example under Literature), though it doesn't address the fundamental issue with the warren: the nefarious brain washing by Cowslip. That's a whole different thing. Reminds me of the Matrix mostly, but there's quite a few works of fiction (and possibly real happenstances) where a society is brainwashed into a cult system with ignorance and belief.

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Offline Strifer

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General Woundwort = Adolf Hitler?
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2016, 09:32:17 PM »
TVTropes... *shudders* I have horrible memories of that website's members.
Good idea to mention, though.
“I am hopelessly and forever a mountaineer,” “Civilization and fever and all the morbidness that has been hooted at me has not dimmed my glacial eye, and I care to live only to entice people to look at Nature’s loveliness.”  -John Muir


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Offline Darkling Nocturnal

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General Woundwort = Adolf Hitler?
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2016, 05:16:31 PM »
I also saw the character Woundwort always inspired by Hitler. Of course, differences where in his acting.

But his dictatorial way of rule always mentions Hitler for me. Also in the series, his acting has similarities (imo) - e.g. the takeover of Redstone. I would even say, the Efrafa Junior Owsla in the book was inspired by the Hitler Youth.


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General Woundwort = Adolf Hitler?
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2016, 05:29:10 PM »
Quote from: Darkling Nocturnal on Apr 15 2016, 01:16:31 PM
I also saw the character Woundwort always inspired by Hitler. Of course, differences where in his acting.

But his dictatorial way of rule always mentions Hitler for me. Also in the series, his acting has similarities (imo) - e.g. the takeover of Redstone. I would even say, the Efrafa Junior Owsla in the book was inspired by the Hitler Youth.

You could also spot Gestapo, SS and Waffen SS there as well.


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General Woundwort = Adolf Hitler?
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2016, 07:34:32 PM »
You're right. Especially in the book through Owslafa.


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Offline Strifer

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General Woundwort = Adolf Hitler?
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2016, 09:21:21 PM »
Another similarity - the bodies of both General Woundwort and Adolf Hitler were never found.

well, it is suspected that that dog ate Woundwort... and that Hitler comited suicide
“I am hopelessly and forever a mountaineer,” “Civilization and fever and all the morbidness that has been hooted at me has not dimmed my glacial eye, and I care to live only to entice people to look at Nature’s loveliness.”  -John Muir


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General Woundwort = Adolf Hitler?
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2016, 09:23:40 PM »
They both had a well-respect officer amongst their armies too (Campion and Rommel).

Offline Strifer

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General Woundwort = Adolf Hitler?
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2016, 09:42:36 PM »
Indeed. I was trying to find a parallel between Himmler and one of Woundwort's men, but I wasn't able to find any (that and I'm not to that point in the book yet). Hitler and Woundwort both had a council too. There was also the Polish, Jewish, and basically everybody Hitler invaded rebelling against their Nazi overlords, and the rebels within Efrafa.
“I am hopelessly and forever a mountaineer,” “Civilization and fever and all the morbidness that has been hooted at me has not dimmed my glacial eye, and I care to live only to entice people to look at Nature’s loveliness.”  -John Muir


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Offline Corporal Hicks

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General Woundwort = Adolf Hitler?
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2016, 03:49:50 AM »
Personally I think that Woundwort is similar to Hitler in some ways.  He seeks conquest, slavery, and oppression, like Hitler.  He gives benefits to some of the rabbits and uses these rabbits to keep control over the rest.  His attempts to stop any escape align more with Soviet Russia.

The main difference I see from Hitler is that he rules by personal strength.  He himself is a great tactician/fighter.  Hitler was a moronic weakling and tactical disaster (Speaking as someone with a history degree.)  But I suppose that is maybe splitting hares. (Yes that was a pun.)  

Really I see Woundwort as similar to any totalitarian ruler, be they fascist or communist.
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General Woundwort = Adolf Hitler?
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2016, 11:05:25 AM »
Quote from: Quote:on 
Really I see Woundwort as similar to any totalitarian ruler, be they fascist or communist.

This line pretty much sums it up for me. If we can draw comparisons between Woundwort and any dictator, be it Hitler or Stalin or the Kims of North Korea, it indicates (to me) that he is an allegory of totalitarianism in general.

There's a reason this novel is considered a classic; it's timeless. It's about society. It can apply to us today.
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Offline Corporal Hicks

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General Woundwort = Adolf Hitler?
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2016, 03:11:31 PM »
Quote from: Strifer on Apr 15 2016, 05:21:21 PM
Another similarity - the bodies of both General Woundwort and Adolf Hitler were never found.

well, it is suspected that that dog ate Woundwort... and that Hitler comited suicide
I didn't think of that, good point. Of course the story goes that they burned hitlers corpse so the soviets couldn't get their hands on it (I doubt they would have been respectful)
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General Woundwort = Adolf Hitler?
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2016, 03:30:14 PM »
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 21 2016, 11:11:31 AM
Quote from: Strifer on Apr 15 2016, 05:21:21 PM
Another similarity - the bodies of both General Woundwort and Adolf Hitler were never found.

well, it is suspected that that dog ate Woundwort... and that Hitler comited suicide
I didn't think of that, good point. Of course the story goes that they burned hitlers corpse so the soviets couldn't get their hands on it (I doubt they would have been respectful)

If Hitler had any doubt about that, he just needed to remind himself of what they did to Mussolini -and wife, which I think was completely over the line- earlier.