Chapters 11-14 Discussion (August 14-August 19)

[Chibiscuit]

Discussion topic for chapters 11, 12, 13 and 14! 

[Hammy]

I'm reading along via audiobook now, and I was looking forward to getting to Cowslip's warren. We all know what's going to happen, but the detailed happenings in the warren, and the foreshadowing leading up to what's coming, it's all brilliant. Not too many chapter specific comments, but I'll put down what I have.

Chapter 13: I always forget how Hazel reacts to the "shape" on one of the tunnel walls. The idea that such abstract representations of ideas, art, that kind of thing, would be foreign to a creature that spends much of its life running and fighting for survival, that makes sense. The rabbits of the warren have no need to worry about predation or disease or hunger, so they tend to distract themselves from the true danger. The name "Poison Tree" may well be foreshadowing in its own right, seeing how the warren lives under a tree.

Also, Kingcup is dead. Kingcup is so incredibly dead.

Chapter 14: Cowslip laughing is really, really creepy, if only because of the way Hazel and Blackberry react to it. Cowslip's laugh is unsettling even in adaption, but you don't get the detail you do in writing. In the moving picture, you have to approximate human behavior in one way or another, but writing gives more leeway to have these rabbits act like rabbits. They're far-removed from great apes, and something we take for granted is bizarre and alien for them. Same thing goes for the doe singing like a bird.

When Hazel first catches himself before using a "where" question, he thinks "I'm learning", when, in truth, it would be better to say that he's being slowly conditioned, just like all the other rabbits there. Conditioning and training being one of those concepts that rabbits wouldn't quite comprehend.

The doubt that Hazel shows Fiver is interesting too. Back in the first chapter even, Hazel seems pretty certain that Fiver knows better about things than he does, yet he's beginning to doubt here. That will come back to bite later, but it's important for making it clear later on that ignoring Fiver's feelings is a sure path to disaster.

[Chipster-roo]

Chapter 11.

Firstly, I want to mention that there are two different ending passages to this chapter, depending on which edition you have.  This site describes it in more detail: https://web.archive.org/web/20080609035414/http://www.helsinki.fi/~peuha/english/watership/

I think the edited version is pretty awkward, especially since it leaves one mention of Blackberry calling Hazel Chief:

"Oh, Hazel," said Blackberry, coming up to him round a puddle in the gravel. "I was so tired and confused, I actually began to wonder whether you knew where you were going. I could hear you in the heather, saying 'Not far now' and it was annoying me. I thought you were making it up. I should have known better. Frithrah, you're what I call a Chief Rabbit!"

This also shows how Blackberry is one of the first to accept Hazel's authority as leader.

Also, Bigwig not being pleased at Hazel being called Chief makes it in the film, if I remember correctly, just before Violet's death.

The chapter also highlights some of Hazel's fears.  He is afraid that the group may be divided, due to "the bland trio's" revolt, and the way Bigwig reacted.

Now Bigwig's put their backs up, and they'll think they have to go on because he makes them.  I want them to go on because they can see it's the only thing to do.  There are too few of us for giving orders and biting people.

Speaking of which...I find it interesting how the word "people" is often used to talk about rabbits...

But either way, everyone reaches a safe place before the group can fall apart.

I'lll reply to Hammy's post when I get to chapters 13 and 14.

[Hawkbit]

I will likely get my replies in last minute like last time unless I find some time tomorrow.  We'll see.....

And everyone's going with my "Bland Trio" nickname....hehe.

[Acacia Heartstrings]

Using the word "people" to describe rabbits is not the only way they commit this strange error. XD Especially in many other literary works.
Hazel feels responsible for all her rabbits, which is why Blackberry is the first to realize her skills as a leader in making the best decisions for her group. They managed to escape from the burrow, they overcame the dog, they crossed the river, they crossed a long way to the Cowslip rabbit hut and many other challenges, but it is obvious that the group's passion for finding a home was ending. And at that point the alliance of Hazel's rabbit could break, but Cowslip appeared just in time.

What hammy says is quite interesting and I had not realized ... The Cowslip burrow is a cult of death and easy life. Due to their refined and strange customs, they subtly and unconsciously adict the other rabbits to follow their rules and traditions, without even noticing they are already part of that cult of nightmare. Where each rabbit is afraid to die by the bright wires at any time in exchange for food and safety ....

Only Fiver was the only one able to see through this tangle of lies and false happiness.                 

[Chipster-roo]

Chapter 12.  Cowslip first appears here, but Hazel and the others only visit his warren at the very end of the chapter.

The chapter begins with an extended description of how it feels to the rabbits that the journey has ended and life can be enjoyed again.  I like the comparisons to various human situations.

Speedwell jumped over the little brook that ran down the middle of the field and when Acorn tried to follow him and fell short, Silver joked with him as he scrambled out and rolled him in a patch of dead oak leaves until he was dry.

I found this passage funny

"Well, there's no need to do any serious digging, is there?" said Bigwig.  "That sort of thing's all right for does, but not for us."

Here we have the first acknowledgement that there are no does in the group.  However, nobody realized yet that this threatens their survival; right now it's just an excuse not to do any serious digging.

Who knows why men do anything?

That can be accurate sometimes

Perhaps the most interesting part of the chapter, though, is Cowslip's first appearance.  One thing I find interesting is that it seems that Fiver already had a bad feeling even before Cowslip showed up.  Fiver did stay away from the others for most of the day and didn't take part in the digging.

It's rather interesting to see the way everyone reacts to Cowslip.  Bigwig seems aggressive at first but later agrees to join his warren.  Blackberry makes a lengthy analysis of the situation and considers that joining them is safe.  Fiver, of course, realizes that there is something wrong, but nobody listens to him.  I can't really blame them: it's raining and their current scrapes are not very comfortable, and the prospect of being in a decent burrow is very appealing.

The holes and tunnels of an old warren become smooth, reassuring and comfortable with use.  There are no snags or rough corners.  Every length smells of rabbit - of that great, indestructible flood of Rabbitry in which each one is carried along, sure-footed and safe.

This is perhaps one of my favourites passages in the entire book.

[Chibiscuit]

Once more I wasn't expecting this week to be so busy but finally got to this so...

Chapter 11

The question of leadership really comes into play this chapter: Hazel or Bigwig? And just as when they were crossing the river, Blackberry shows his support for Hazel, recognizing his true Chief Rabbit potential.

Adams manages to capture the terror the rabbits experience whilst travel extremely well once more. And, as Hazel wryly notices at the end of the chapter, it was mostly luck that they made it through as it is clear none of them have a clue where they're going and they are all confused. Highlighted well in this passage:

Once, hearing an unaccountable noise in front of him, which ceased on the instant, he kept still for a long time; and when at last he moved cautiously forward, found Silver crouching behind a tussock of cock's-foot for fear of the sound of his own approach.

Conclusion:

All was confusion, ignorance, clambering and exhaustion.

I love the passage that directly follows this, where it is described how Pipkin remained at Hazel's side and how Hazel encouraging Pipkin to carry on turned into Hazel's own anchor in the befuddling mist. Very nice.
Though...

[...]saying, "Not far now" and it was annoying me.

...I don't think Blackberry quite agrees with me on that one

Hawkbit winced in an exaggerated manner

Now this is something I could see series Hawkbit do as well

Firstly, I want to mention that there are two different ending passages to this chapter, depending on which edition you have.  This site describes it in more detail: https://web.archive.org/web/20080609035414/http://www.helsinki.fi/~peuha/english/watership/

I didn't know there were two different versions. I agree that the revised version is a bit awkward and prefer the original one myself. My version is the Penguin 40th Anniversary edition so it has the original text, thank Frith.

Coincidently, just today, I managed to get hold of the same Dutch translation that my father had read to me as a kid (we had lost that book) and because I was curious I checked to see and it turns out it uses the abridged text as source.

Just speculation but I think the change might have to do with the foreshadowing in it.

It did indeed prove a momentous day - and a momentous speech as well: but it lay in the future that none could foresee, and for the moment all that poor Hazel could do was to turn aside with the disappointed feeling that after all, his part in the crossing of the heather had not really been a very important one.

I can't recall at what point Bigwig first acknowledges Hazel as his Chief but perhaps there was a change in this happening and thus this foreshadowing to this moment was removed?

Speaking of which...I find it interesting how the word "people" is often used to talk about rabbits...

I guess it's used in the sense of 'members of a certain community' and not specifically as human beings. Seeing as they are rabbits it would make sense that to them people are rabbits and calling humans people would be strange to them.
At least that's what I think^^

[Chibiscuit]

Chapter 12 

The rabbits frolicking around in the field at the start is a cute scene. 

Fiver looked as though he was about to speak, but then shook his ears and took to nibbling at a dandelion.

1) I first misread that as 'nibbling at Dandelion'  (probably because it was in response to Dandelion)
2) At this point, Fiver notices the others are discussing staying there permanently yet he knows that this is not the place for them to be. Their journey is still not over. However, he stops himself from mentioning it.
At first I thought this odd but combined with his 'beetle-spirited vapouring' (what a description) comment later on, I believe he picked up on Hazel's attempts to keep his visions away from the others to prevent trouble and thus holds his tongue initially.

We meet Cowslip then and his behaviour clearly confuses the rabbits. I actually never noticed before but it reminds me of Sol from the Warrior Cats series. Both have a calm demeanour that perplexes and unsettles others. It is interesting that it is Fiver who eventually speaks up and demands clearer answers. I wonder, had he perhaps better not done that? If the others had been left confused, could Fiver have persuaded them to stay from Cowslip?

Long quote incoming...

'Well,' replied Blackberry, 'what I think is this. There's no way of finding out whether he's to be trusted except to try it. He seemed friendly. But then, if a lot of rabbits were afraid of  some newcomers and wanted to deceive them - get them down a hole and attack them- they'd start- wouldn't they?- by sending someone who was plausible. They might want to kill us. But then again, as he said, there's plenty of grass and as for turning them out or taking their does, if they're all up to his size and weight they've nothing to fear from a crowd like us. They must have seen us come. We were tired. Surely that was the time to attack us? Or while we were separated, before we began digging? But they didn't. I reckon they're more likely to be friendly than otherwise. There's only one thing that beats me. What do they stand to get from asking us to join their warren?'

I had to type all this out because it's this kind of thing - analysing the situation- that makes me love Blackberry. It's also shown that Hazel puts great trust in Blackberry as he asks him to accompany him to speak with the stranger.

Who knows why men do anything?

That can be accurate sometimes

This seems to be a common question in animal fiction where humans live too. I often question it myself too though...

The holes and tunnels of an old warren become smooth, reassuring and comfortable with use.  There are no snags or rough corners.  Every length smells of rabbit - of that great, indestructible flood of Rabbitry in which each one is carried along, sure-footed and safe.

This is perhaps one of my favourites passages in the entire book.

It is a great quote 

[Chibiscuit]

Chapter 13 

The chapter is mainly about introducing Cowslip's warren and its peculiarities. Like how in the open it is, the weird greeting they do, how large it is, the brick from the abandoned well, that it has no Chief Rabbit, and of course the Shape.
Some important person once said that art can only surface when a community, as a whole, has moved beyond the stage of basic survival. The creation of something like a Shape in Cowslip's warren seems to indicate this. The rabbits don't have to forage at all so they have lots of spare time that they can utilise in other ways.
And as Hammy said, to rabbits who DO have to fight for survival things like a Shape are just completely alien.

Also, the fact that Strawberry changes the subject each time any rabbit asks a 'Where' questions must be tiring. You could really easily mess with him them by constantly asking where, where, where 

Both rabbits together made a curious, dancing movement of the head and front paws.

This part made me laugh  I hope they put it in the mini-series.

However, he put Pipkin immediately behind him. 'It'll warm his little heart for once.'

This was cute. I didn't realise Hazel and Pipkin had so many cute moments together!

Rabbits have their own conventions and formalities, but these are few and short by human standards. [...] The rabbits mingled naturally. They did not talk for talking's sake, in the artificial manner that human beings- and sometimes even their dogs and cat- do. But this did not mean that they were not communicating; merely that they were not communicating by talking.

This is a passage that has stuck with me. I couldn't remember when it happened but I did remember it clearly (it(s still not the quote that has been with me for ages tho). I like it a lot. I think it's the truth.

'But men won't shoot a homba.'

Men will shoot anything...

[Chibiscuit]

Chapter 14 

'Like trees in November' - the title of this chapter is something I remember but I was convinced it had been Fiver who'd said it and not Pipkin! Pipkin turns out to be quite perceptive and he and Hazel once again share a cute moment. Really, it's like Hazel adopted Pipkin, it's so freaking adorable!

The rabbits at the warren show even more un-rabbit-like behaviour -laughing, carrying food, singing like birds- but as Hammy mentioned Hazel is already getting conditioned and though the laughter unsettled him, he willingly takes part in the carrying of food.

I also really like how Blackberry clearly did not want to go out in the rain but follows Hazel anyway + the fact that Hazel wanted his company. Why are all these buns being so cute?

[...] in which El-ahrairah said that it was all a trick of his to disguise himself as Poison-Tree and put the stones in the wall, to engage Strawberry's attention while he himself was getting acquainted with Nildro-hain.

....sooo El-ahrairah still goes around stealing other bucks' does...? 

Sayn lay narn, marli?

Another full sentence of Lapine! And the image of Pipkin muttering this in his sleep is cute. (cute is the word of the day it seems)
(I can't see narn though and not think of The Children of Hurin...)

Strawberry was really a harmless, decent sort of fellow. He was touchingly devoted to the beautiful Nildro-hain; and he evidently had moods of gaiety and a great capacity for enjoyment.

Some nice words for Strawberry (that make the upcoming tragedy even worse). I really do wonder how they will handle and portray female Strawberry.

He came to one of the fragments, sniffed it and tasted it. It was carrot.

This amused me for some reason.^^

'I'm the one who ought to get angry,' said Fiver. 'But I'm no good at it, that's the trouble. Why should they listen to me? Half of them think I'm mad. You're to blame, Hazel, because you know I'm not and still you won't listen.'

Finally Fiver clearly brings the issue into words. Hazel has been listening less seriously to Fiver since they left the field and it accumulates here. They both express their frustrations but Hazel will soon learn that ignoring Fiver's warnings is not a good idea. Whether the others accept him as Chief Rabbit or not. I like the way this conflict between the two was slowly brought to light over a few chapters. It feels quite natural because of that.

Well, these mad rabbits probably dance in the moonlight or something

Dancing in the moonlight, everybody's feeling warm and bright, it's such a fiiine and natural sight!
(I love that song )

'We shall enjoy that,' replied Cowslip immediately.
'He'd better,' muttered Bigwig.

You will like our story or else...!
  Or what? We'll show you Shapes.
  ...!

[Chipster-roo]

Chapter 13.

One thing I find interesting is how several things about Cowslip's warren seem weird at first, but after one finds out its dark secret it all makes sense.

For example, there is no point in trying to conceal the warren, as the farmer shoots all the elil.  Also, when Hazel says:

Cowslip, you said your warren wasn't large, but judging by the holes we saw along the bank, it must be what we'd reckon a fine, big one.

It's not that big because of the wires, which explains the rather awkward feeling that followed.

Fiver stays away from the others, since he has a bad feeling about the entire warren and didn't want to go there in the first place.

After Strawberry talks about how great the warren is, Hazel notices that he "did not sound particularly happy", once again because of the warren's dark secret.

And at the end of the chapter, when Strawberry calls for Kingcup, he isn't there.  On my first reading I quickly forgot about that, and only realized later on that he had been killed in a snare.

Pipkin, some way away from Hazel, crouched at his ease between two huge rabbits who could have broken his back in a second, while Buckthorn and Cowslip started a playful scuffle, nipping each other like kittens and then breaking off to comb their ears in a comical pretence of sudden gravity.

I found this cute

His doe's a beautiful creature, too.  Perhaps there are some more like her in the warren.

Hazel attracted to Nildro-hain?

Some important person once said that art can only surface when a community, as a whole, has moved beyond the stage of basic survival. The creation of something like a Shape in Cowslip's warren seems to indicate this. The rabbits don't have to forage at all so they have lots of spare time that they can utilise in other ways.

The idea that such abstract representations of ideas, art, that kind of thing, would be foreign to a creature that spends much of its life running and fighting for survival, that makes sense. The rabbits of the warren have no need to worry about predation or disease or hunger, so they tend to distract themselves from the true danger.

This is interesting; I remember watching some documentaries about this, and it makes sense about Cowslip's warren.

(a bit off-topic, but I was rather pleased with the way the shape was depicted in the TV series; too bad it wasn't in the film)

Both rabbits together made a curious, dancing movement of the head and front paws.

This part made me laugh  I hope they put it in the mini-series.

I hope so too.  I didn't really like the way the TV series handled it.  Based on the description in the book it reminds me of this:

Specifically at around 0:08, but watch the whole thing it's really cute.  Also this video was made several years ago, and all rabbits involved appear to have been adopted since

This was cute. I didn't realise Hazel and Pipkin had so many cute moments together!

This is an underrated friendship, there should be more fanfics about these two.

Men will shoot anything...

Sad but true

I'm reading along via audiobook now,

@Hammy I think there are several audiobook versions of WD; which one are you listening to, and how are you liking it?

The name "Poison Tree" may well be foreshadowing in its own right, seeing how the warren lives under a tree.

I never quite realized that before.  Fascinating.

Also, Kingcup is dead. Kingcup is so incredibly dead.

My heart has joined the Thousand, for Kingcup stopped running today

Fiver looked as though he was about to speak, but then shook his ears and took to nibbling at a dandelion.

1) I first misread that as 'nibbling at Dandelion'  (probably because it was in response to Dandelion)

That could possibly be interesting

I hope to read chapter 14 tomorrow.

[Hammy]

I think there are several audiobook versions of WD; which one are you listening to, and how are you liking it?

It's the version read by Ralph Cosham, and I'm enjoying it pretty well. It was the only version my library had for audiobooks, and, honestly, I would have taken any. I have a hard time focusing on actual reading, especially with detail-oriented writing like Adams'. I enjoy being able to discuss details because I actually managed to notice them with the reading. So, thank you Mr. Cosham.

[Chipster-roo]

Chapter 14.

One thing I noticed is that Nildro-hain doesn't really speak.  While she does have a short conversation with Hazel, her lines aren't written down.  Meanwhile, in the 2016 radio drama, she has even more lines than Strawberry in Cowslip's warren.

But I'd rather admire you and your friends than stones on a wall.

El-ahrairah said that it was all a trick of his to disguise himself as Poison Tree and put the stones in the wall, to engage Strawberry's attention while he himself was getting acquainted with Nildro-hain.

Hazel totally has a crush

I agree with Hammy that the laughing scene is creepy.  Unfortunately, the series has everyone, including the WD rabbits, laughing on a regular basis...

Everyone learns to appreciate Cowslip's warren.  Hawkbit praises Hazel Bigwig says that it was better than Sandleford and Acorn said something positive in chapter 13.  It's only Fiver, who slept outside in the rain all night.  Hazel really made a mistake not to listen to him.

A few funny/interesting passages:

He could smell the man.  The man could not smell him.  All the man could smell was the nasty smoke he was making.

"My mother used to say, 'If you were a horse the ceiling would fall down,'" said Hazel.

Cowslip, coming up nearby, turned toward him with his unnatural smile.

Cowslip really is the creepiest one of them all...

Hazel sat nibbling and biting, the rich, full taste of the cultivated roots filling him with a wave of pleasure.

"Well, these mad rabbits probably dance in the moonlight or something."
"I wouldn't be surprised," said Hazel.  "It would be just like them.  Let's ask Cowslip."
[...]
"Try asking him where he dances in the moonlight.  Say 'Cowslip, where-"

It was pleasantly warm with the heat of so many bodies.

Really, it's like Hazel adopted Pipkin, it's so freaking adorable!

This is perfect

I also really like how Blackberry clearly did not want to go out in the rain but follows Hazel anyway + the fact that Hazel wanted his company. Why are all these buns being so cute?

All buns are cute But I hadn't noticed that about Blackberry and Hazel, it's interesting

....sooo El-ahrairah still goes around stealing other bucks' does...? 

Apparently he does Although, as TFWD will show, he doesn't like it when others steal HIS does.

(I can't see narn though and not think of The Children of Hurin...)

I'm not really familiar with this...what is it?

I really do wonder how they will handle and portray female Strawberry.

I'm so tired of waiting...please just release the miniseries already...

You will like our story or else...!
  Or what? We'll show you Shapes.
  ...!

@Chibiscuit that was hilarious

[Chibiscuit]

But I'd rather admire you and your friends than stones on a wall.

El-ahrairah said that it was all a trick of his to disguise himself as Poison Tree and put the stones in the wall, to engage Strawberry's attention while he himself was getting acquainted with Nildro-hain.

Hazel totally has a crush

  ...

(I can't see narn though and not think of The Children of Hurin...)

I'm not really familiar with this...what is it?

The Children of Húrin is very tragic tale by J.R.R. Tolkien. It's a part of his Middle-Earth history. The word narn reminds me of it because the Elfish title for it is Narn i chîn Húrin. It's also one of my favourite tales even though Tolkien never got to write it out in full as he had intended. Still, parts of it appear in The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and The Children of Húrin and you do have an ending and such but not every part is as detailed as the other and certain details are probably lost forever.

That video is super cute and it would be great if they danced like that. And even better that they all got adopted!

Something I forgot to mention...

a rabbit can no more refuse to tell a story than an Irishman can refuse to fight.

: I'll uh keep that in mind if I ever have the pleasure to visit Ireland.