Chapters 34-35 Discussion (January 19-January 23)

[Chibiscuit]

DISCUSS 

[Chibiscuit]

Chapter 34 

This chapter is about and from the POV of General Woundwort and it paints an interesting picture of Efrafa, I think. One much more interesting than any adaptation where for some reason it seems that all nuance is lost. One thing that immediately becomes clear is that Woundwort is a very active and involved leader in the book (compared to some adaptations: looking at you miniseries).

A few, however, had ventured out into the field, to browse and play in the last of the sun.

Play? Efrafans can play?! First thing that would never be allowed in 'other Efrafa's'.

Captain Chervil on the first page immediately makes me like him, with how he quickly checks if anything is wrong when he sees the General approach and then begins feeding 'with an air of indifference'. Haha, love it~

I'm a bit confused about the weasel in Woundwort's backstory: it kills his mother and leaves him alone because 'its hunger is satisfied' (unlike those foxes in the miniseries) but then it says the old schoolmaster found Woundwort 'nuzzling the cold, still body and crying' sooo did the weasel not eat his mother then??

[...]until his weight overbore and exhausted them.

*imagines Woundwort body-slamming his opponents to win*
I guess he quite literally crushed them beneath him 

Woundwort was ready to fight anything but a fox.

Huh I did not expect that.

One evening he attacked and drove off an Aberdeen puppy.

That... doesn't really sound very impressive.
*imagines  chasing a Scottish Terrier puppy*
...

When the does stopped digging, Woundwort himself went on with their work while they slept.

Bucks don't dig, eh?

Snowdrop is a cunning advisor?
I like the idea of the Council not only consisting of Owsla officers but also advisors.
And apparently  did a lot of Efrafa's organization.

This now needed another outlet[...]He would simply pick four or five of the Owsla and take them out to look for trouble.

It would seem Woundwort is even more extreme in his stress-relieving than Bigwig!

On the first occasion they were lucky enough to find and kill a sick owl that had eaten a mouse that had eaten poison-dressed seed-corn.

Foodchain: seed-corn -> mouse -> owl -> 

Woundwort would give them tasks

Efrafa sounds more and more like an RPG the more I read.

[..]led by a certain Captain Orchis[...]

!! Orchis' one moment of glory in the book. That 'certain' amuses me for some reason.

[...]although he believed-and so did his Council and his Owsla- that he was giving the warren peace and security at a price which was modest enough.

Interesting that despite the fact that the expanding and personally going on Wide Patrols were all to satisfy Woundwort's hunger for power; in the end he does genuinely feel he's doing what's best for Efrafa.
Earlier, during Holly's stay in Efrafa, Hyzenthlay also doesn't call the system bad in and of itself; only failing due to overcrowding. In fact, it almost seems as if only does were allowed to leave when it became too crowded, to start or join a new warren far away, a lot of issues would be solved.
Woundwort is also 'seriously concerned' about the latest disciplinary problem (caused by the does not allowed to leave who, as stated, were peaceful at first and willing to go very far away).

Woundwort is also smart enough to realize that chasing the outsiders is not priority and that he should instead focus on internal affairs for now.

Really, Efrafa is such a mix of positive and negative intentions and executions; it makes it all very intriguing.

'That sort of rabbit doesn't hop out of the grass'
'Well, they've got to hop from somewhere,' said Woundwort.

Woundwort is funny (?!)

'Anyway, I want to go round your sentries now. Come with me, will you?'

Poor Chervil...

Captain Chervil[...]had just returned from a round of his sentries

...he had JUST done that!

I like the word Crixa for the crossroad.

Now, I thought Woundwort's infatuation with Campion was a series thing. However...

[...]an enterprising officer-Captain Campion perhaps-
[...]and Campion could hardly be spared just now.

-none other than Captain Campion himself.

Woundwort's POV announces him as some sort of hero.

An expert tracker, he missed little or nothing and was one of the very few rabbits for whom Woundwort felt genuine respect.

*Vervain groaning in the background *

'Do you want me?' said Woundwort, pausing.
'Well, I think so, sir,' replied Campion.

I just- I mean, come on!

'Wants to join Efrafa?' asked Woundwort, puzzled.

Woundwort was nonplussed. He was no fool andhe could not help feeling, extremely odd that any right-minded rabbit should choose to walk into Efrafa of his own accord. But he could hardly say so.

It's again intriguing that despite feeling he was doing Efrafa good, he does acknowledge, on some level, that no sane rabbit would willingly want to join it and is clearly puzzled by the thought.

Then at the end of the chapter the Council discuss Bigwig and Woundwort proposes they let him train under Chervil and the Council agrees.So... if the Council had not agreed to Woundwort's proposal, would it not have happened? Wow the Council has more power than I expected if it can even overrule the General himself. 

[Hammy]

'Do you want me?' said Woundwort, pausing.
'Well, I think so, sir,' replied Campion.

I just- I mean, come on!

Pssssh.
That's beautiful.
And so very-
I'm torn between calling it purely Watership Down or purely Richard Adams.


Someone's got a crush.

[Chibiscuit]

And the best part is that it comes directly after Woundwort gushes over Campion in his mind. Like- okay.

And Chervil is just awkwardly there.

And here I thought Woundwort's infatuation with Campion was Series only. Nope clearly not. Also I hope it's a Adams thing because I want more of it.

[Hammy]

Just the way it's written strikes me as very Adams-y.

One evening he attacked and drove off an Aberdeen puppy.

That... doesn't really sound very impressive.
*imagines  chasing a Scottish Terrier puppy*
...

Ahahaha, oh, that poor doggo.

[Chibiscuit]

Just the way it's written strikes me as very Adams-y.

Perfect

[Hammy]

Chapter 34 

This chapter is about and from the POV of General Woundwort and it paints an interesting picture of Efrafa, I think. One much more interesting than any adaptation where for some reason it seems that all nuance is lost. One thing that immediately becomes clear is that Woundwort is a very active and involved leader in the book (compared to some adaptations: looking at you miniseries).

Now this is something that immediately picked up on and wanted to talk about: the level of depth, proper depth that makes sense given what we're told. Efrafa isn't painted as this awful, terrible, horribad place, not on the surface anyway, like pretty much all of the adaptations so far have it. Woundwort isn't just evil because he is, indeed, he and it seems quite a few of the rabbits think that all the things he's done are for the good of the warren. That's the kind of nuance that I think is really missing from the adaptations, and, I think, only the 99 series even comes close to getting this aspect.

Play? Efrafans can play?! First thing that would never be allowed in 'other Efrafa's'.

Love that detail too, again, showing that Efrafa isn't just all bad all the time. Rabbits live there, and not all of them are necessarily miserable all the time.

I'm a bit confused about the weasel in Woundwort's backstory: it kills his mother and leaves him alone because 'its hunger is satisfied' (unlike those foxes in the miniseries) but then it says the old schoolmaster found Woundwort 'nuzzling the cold, still body and crying' sooo did the weasel not eat his mother then??

I mean, maybe the weasel just ate most of his mother? Grim as that is, the weasel may have just eaten the body and left the head.

Interesting that despite the fact that the expanding and personally going on Wide Patrols were all to satisfy Woundwort's hunger for power; in the end he does genuinely feel he's doing what's best for Efrafa.
Earlier, during Holly's stay in Efrafa, Hyzenthlay also doesn't call the system bad in and of itself; only failing due to overcrowding. In fact, it almost seems as if only does were allowed to leave when it became too crowded, to start or join a new warren far away, a lot of issues would be solved.
Woundwort is also 'seriously concerned' about the latest disciplinary problem (caused by the does not allowed to leave who, as stated, were peaceful at first and willing to go very far away).
Woundwort is also smart enough to realize that chasing the outsiders is not priority and that he should instead focus on internal affairs for now.
Really, Efrafa is such a mix of positive and negative intentions and executions; it makes it all very intriguing.

Again, true blue nuance and depth in what Efrafa is, how it runs, and how Woundwort thinks. I miss this kind of thing so much in the adaptations.

It's fascinating to me that Woundwort is so baffled at the idea of anyone wanting to join Efrafa. He thinks that he's doing the best he can do for the warren, but still, seems to be aware on some level that this is not a place that most rabbits would want to live. Perhaps, that it's not entirely natural for a warren of rabbits to be run this way. Ironically, with the council and the Owsla and the marks, in a way more akin to human societies, at least some of them. Absolutely fascinating, the whole chapter, excellent details.

[Chipster-roo]

Chapter 32 focuses mainly on Woundwort's backstory.  And here, for once, we get the whole thing: his birth, his parents' deaths, his time living with a human, how he became the leader of a warren, and how he organized Efrafa into the warren it is today.  It actually exists (unlike in the 1978 film and the radio drama) and there are no holes (unlike in the 1999 series and the miniseries).

Overall it's pretty satisfactory.

Play? Efrafans can play?! First thing that would never be allowed in 'other Efrafa's'.

It does seem that the adaptations portray Efrafa as a worse place than it is in the book.

Captain Chervil on the first page immediately makes me like him, with how he quickly checks if anything is wrong when he sees the General approach and then begins feeding 'with an air of indifference'. Haha, love it~

The odds are that, in other adaptations, if the General casually walks up to you while you're at silflay, you're in trouble.

The General is an old bun, already three years old at the time of the chapter.  Real life wild rabbits rarely make it longer than that.

I'm a bit confused about the weasel in Woundwort's backstory: it kills his mother and leaves him alone because 'its hunger is satisfied' (unlike those foxes in the miniseries) but then it says the old schoolmaster found Woundwort 'nuzzling the cold, still body and crying' sooo did the weasel not eat his mother then??

Hammy is probably right.  The weasel didn't eat the entire body, he probably left the head and some bones.

This chapter has perhaps the most balanced portrayal of humans in any version of WD.  Woundwort's father and siblings are killed by a human, but he himself is saved by another.

Most rabbits in his situation, lacking almost all experience of wild life, would have fallen victim at once to the elil: but not Woundwort.

Not Clover either

One evening he attacked and drove off an Aberdeen puppy.

That... doesn't really sound very impressive.
*imagines  chasing a Scottish Terrier puppy*
...

That dog wasn't as big and savage as the one who finally ended him.

[...]hoped someday to kill a weasel

To avenge his mother, perhaps?

Bucks don't dig, eh?

Woundwort would probably kill anyone who tried to make fun of him for digging.

Snowdrop is a cunning advisor?

Yes, and he is also a buck.  Mallow was an owsla officer of of exceptional prestige and experience, until a fox put an end to that Poor Gilia

It would seem Woundwort is even more extreme in his stress-relieving than Bigwig!

What if Woundwort had some random assistant who would be beaten up on a regular basis, whenever Woundwort is stressed?

[...]find out whether a particular ditch or barn contained rats which could later be attacked in force and driven out.

What did we do to deserve this?

in the end he does genuinely feel he's doing what's best for Efrafa.

This is in sharp contrast to the 1999 series, where he was satisfied to learn that many rabbits were ill because they wouldn't have the strength to run away.

Earlier, during Holly's stay in Efrafa, Hyzenthlay also doesn't call the system bad in and of itself; only failing due to overcrowding. In fact, it almost seems as if only does were allowed to leave when it became too crowded, to start or join a new warren far away, a lot of issues would be solved.

That probably would have would have avoided a lot of issues.  Kehaar would have stumbled upon Hyzenthlay and Thethuthinnang's group, and Hazel would have invited them to join them at WD.  WD's gender imbalance is fixed, so they never have to go to Efrafa, and the Efrafans, since the patrols rarely go beyond the iron road, never find out about WD.  Bugless stays in the owsla, Charlock and Mallow survive.

Too bad Woundwort rejected the plan though.

But, worse, Captain Charlock - a brave and resourceful rabbit - while leading the pursuit of the fugitives, had been run down on the iron road by a train: a further proof, if any were needed, of the wicked malice of men.

Yep, we're very evil.  But it's interesting how Woundwort knows what a train is and that it is related to humans, while Holly and his gang dismissed it as a supernatural entity.

Woundwort is also smart enough to realize that chasing the outsiders is not priority and that he should instead focus on internal affairs for now.

Another thing 1999 series Woundwort wouldn't do.  Despite Campion warning that many officers are killed on wide patrol, he forces them to keep going.

'That sort of rabbit doesn't hop out of the grass'

*casually hops out of the grass*

I like the word Crixa for the crossroad.

According to Wikipedia, the word "crixa" also refers to the residential dormitories at Ohio State University.  I suppose the dormitories are run like Efrafa?

Now, I thought Woundwort's infatuation with Campion was a series thing. However...

[...]an enterprising officer-Captain Campion perhaps-
[...]and Campion could hardly be spared just now.

-none other than Captain Campion himself.

Woundwort's POV announces him as some sort of hero.

An expert tracker, he missed little or nothing and was one of the very few rabbits for whom Woundwort felt genuine respect.

*Vervain groaning in the background *

'Do you want me?' said Woundwort, pausing.
'Well, I think so, sir,' replied Campion.

I just- I mean, come on!

This is so crazy But I suppose that if anyone tried to suggest that, they would be killed.  Woundwort doesn't seem like he wants his crush to become widely known.

It's funny how Bigwig tries to fight Campion at the first opportunity.

Then at the end of the chapter the Council discuss Bigwig and Woundwort proposes they let him train under Chervil and the Council agrees.So... if the Council had not agreed to Woundwort's proposal, would it not have happened? Wow the Council has more power than I expected if it can even overrule the General himself. 

You make a valid point, although I have the feeling that Woundwort probably wouldn't have let it go so easily.  They would have had to put up some good arguments to not promote Bigwig for the General to agree.

[Chibiscuit]

Chapter 35 which I thought I'd already written down but apparently not 

'They want to be natural, the anti-social little beasts.'

Nothing so anti-social as refusing to burrow your excrements!
Also, they have a hraka-sentry. I can't. That must be the shittiest job in all of Efrafa.

'You may not be so keen when you've had a day or two with him[Woundwort] - you'll be worn out.'

Nah he'll be fine. Might be fun. They share a hobby after all. 

Out of all the Marks, the Neck Mark is the one I REALLY wouldn't want to be in.

The scene with Blackavar is really sad and haunting. He's driven to a point where he doesn't even remember what he's supposed to say. Poor bun 
...but still...

'He'll meet a blacker rabbit than himself one of these nights.'

Always liked this line. Quite  pleased it is said by Chervil with 'callous indifference'.
Speaking of Chervil, him taking pride in knowing all of his Mark rabbits by name and even a little of their backstory; plus going out of his way to prove this by having small talk with any that pass is... kinda adorable...

'You'll get on yourself one day, Captain, I dare say,' she replied. 'Like Captain Mallow - he got on, you know. why don't you send some does on Wide Patrol?'

Nelthilta hah.

I like Hyzenthlay's poem. It really is a pity it hasn't appeared in any adaptations yet. It very poignantly shows how the does are suffering because as Bigwig realizes at that moment,

'He knew that the effect of overcrowding and tension in a warren show themselves first in the does. They become infertile and aggressive. But if aggression cannot mend their troubles, then often they begin to drift towards the only other way out.'

'I think our officers are a strong bunch, don't you?'

idk I thought Marjoram was kinda innocently cute in an Efrafan way here.

Blackavar bit Campion? And it seems that Campion in general had a lot of trouble subduing Blackavar. Considering the high (be it biased) praise thrown around for Campion, does that mean that Blackavar was quite the impressive fighter before? But he was not in the Owsla? Is it because Woundwort didn't trust him?

'I know Blackberry would say I was a fool.'

'Why yes Bigwig I would.'

'[...]for my heart is in the frost.'

The Tolkien vibes are strong in this one.

I had actually completely forgotten Hyzenthlay had visions like Fiver. I thought that was Vilthuril?

'A dog- a rope that snaps like dry branch. A rabbit- no, it is not possible!- a rabbit that that rides in a hrududu.'

I just realized that this is the same vision Fiver has multiple times in the miniseries.
 

'My courage, my spirit: it is so much less than it was. I'm afraid to let you rely on me.'

It would seem that Hyzenthlay has moved beyond the aggression phase and into that of despair. If Bigwig hasn't shown up to get her out, I wonder how much longer she would've lasted before she faded?
Again, if only does were allowed to leave, far away if must, Efrafa would've been off for the better.

'Captain Campion may be on patrol.'
'Oh, I do hope he is,' said Bigwig. 'I really do.'

He's almost as eager to see Campion as Woundwort is.

The 'dismal fancies of anxiety' that Bigwig experiences at the end of the chapter are rather amusing.

[Chipster-roo]

Chapter 35.

Who is Dr. Johnson from the quote?

The first part of the chapter seems to be about Bigwig learning more about how Efrafa works.  It is more complicated than any other adaptation portrayed it, and it's quite interesting.  The last few pages involve Bigwig and Hyzenthlay discussing the escape, and Hyzenthlay is a great bun.

But do they often try to run away?

They will soon!

Also, they have a hraka-sentry. I can't. That must be the shittiest job in all of Efrafa.

That pun though

Tell Captain Sainfoin I'm bringing my Mark up at once.

This Sainfoin fellow was in the miniseries, as the sergeant who decided to train Bigwig for the owsla.

Out of all the Marks, the Neck Mark is the one I REALLY wouldn't want to be in.

BEWARE THE VAMPIRE BUNS

The Council were merciful!

I could easily imagine that as a newspaper headline.

Speaking of Chervil, him taking pride in knowing all of his Mark rabbits by name and even a little of their backstory; plus going out of his way to prove this by having small talk with any that pass is... kinda adorable...

This is true, and it's disappointing this never happened in any of the adaptations.  Here, we can see that not all Efrafan officers are evil, and some of them can actually be quite nice.  Sure, there was Campion in the 1999 series, but he did very little to improve the lives of the individual slaves.

Why don't you send some does on Wide Patrol?

That probably would have solved a few problems.

Hyzenthlay is a pretty talented rabbit.  She is a good poet, she has visions and she is a decent fighter (as seen in TFWD).

Considering the high (be it biased) praise thrown around for Campion, does that mean that Blackavar was quite the impressive fighter before? But he was not in the Owsla? Is it because Woundwort didn't trust him?

If I remember correctly, this will be explained later on.  Blackavar's mother was from the Nutley Copse warren discovered by Orchis and Blackavar thought that was why he was rejected from the owsla.

'I know Blackberry would say I was a fool.'

'Why yes Bigwig I would.'

Bringing Blackavar really does complicate matters.

I had actually completely forgotten Hyzenthlay had visions like Fiver. I thought that was Vilthuril?

Vilthuril has visions too, but this is only mentioned in TFWD, not in the original book.

'A dog- a rope that snaps like dry branch. A rabbit- no, it is not possible!- a rabbit that that rides in a hrududu.'

I just realized that this is the same vision Fiver has multiple times in the miniseries.

It would have been nice if Hyzenthlay had had the vision in the miniseries too

I don't know why they left Thethuthinnang and me together.

You can't break up a perfect couple

One thing I've been wondering about though:

tales for kittens on a summer evening

Is that part of her vision, or is she saying that the rabbit riding a hrududu would be something that would be told in a story?
 

'Captain Campion may be on patrol.'
'Oh, I do hope he is,' said Bigwig. 'I really do.'

He's almost as eager to see Campion as Woundwort is.

Bigwig desperately wants to fight Campion after Woundwort stopped him when he first arrived in Efrafa

What is a river?

You're forgetting about the river of knowledge

[Myrkin]

Considering the high (be it biased) praise thrown around for Campion, does that mean that Blackavar was quite the impressive fighter before? But he was not in the Owsla? Is it because Woundwort didn't trust him?

If I remember correctly, this will be explained later on.  Blackavar's mother was from the Nutley Copse warren discovered by Orchis and Blackavar thought that was why he was rejected from the owsla.

"Blackavar, proud of his father, had grown up with the resolve to become an officer in the Owsla. But together with this -- and paradoxically -- there had come to him from his mother a certain resentment against Efrafa and a feeling that they should have no more of him than he cared to give them. Captain Mallow, to whose Mark -- the Right Fore -- he had been sent on trial, had praised his courage and endurance but had not failed to notice the proud detachment of his nature. When the Right Flank needed a junior officer to help Captain Chervil, it was Avens and not Blackavar who had been selected by the Council."

Reading this fragment, it seems to me that while Blackavar wanted to serve in Owsla and become officer, he wasn't as much of a team-player as this job required. Perhaps he was doing his duty well, but didn't treat his fellow soldiers like they were brothers-in-claws which would be a problematic attitude for officer to have.

I don't know why they left Thethuthinnang and me together.

You can't break up a perfect couple

So even the Council is shipping those two? Now I imagine how that debate looked like.