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Author Topic: Clover’s litter  (Read 641 times)

Offline StoryMing

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Clover’s litter
« on: June 04, 2018, 04:15:50 AM »
Would it be fairly safe to assume, do you think, that Clover’s litter is most probably Holly’s?

 • Boxwood already had his doe, Haystack;
 • Strawberry was ill, and would still be mourning the loss of Nildro-hain;
(and neither of them were particularly good fighters)
 • Buckthorn is young and strong, but he was injured; and Holly outranks him, as an Owsla captain and his elder.
 • also, Holly seems to be the one, of all of them, who might have some faint beginning of a friendship with Clover (takes notice of her as a strong sensible doe, tries to help her settle into a new life at the warren...).
— and all the rest of the bucks were of course away on the expedition to Efrafa.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 04:29:42 AM by StoryMing »

Offline StoryMing

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Re: Clover’s litter
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2018, 04:35:06 AM »
While we’re at it, what about Hyzanthaly’s litter? - I like to think Bigwig was the father; though for all we know, it could be almost any of the others.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 04:36:54 AM by StoryMing »

Offline florapaw

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Re: Clover’s litter
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2018, 07:19:56 AM »
Wasn't it practically confirmed they were Holly's, considering she was his mate? I'm not sure, but I personally remember they were Holly's.

As for Hyzenthlay's litter, I think they were Hazel's.

Normally I would put it up to your opinion, but Richard Adams seemed really into shoving these rabbits into monogamous relationships despite the fact rabbits don't really care for monogamy. Anytime a doe is said to have a mate, it's probably their mate who fathered their litter.

Offline StoryMing

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Re: Clover’s litter
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2018, 02:05:44 PM »
Clover was never outright said to be Holly’s mate (unless in the sequel book, which I haven’t read?)

But it seems to be inferred.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 02:08:48 PM by StoryMing »

Offline florapaw

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Re: Clover’s litter
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2018, 02:28:42 PM »
Again, I distinctly remember reading it happen. Unless that's a false memory, that's my opinion haha

Offline StoryMing

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Re: Clover’s litter
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2018, 08:46:55 PM »
Could be in the sequel book- Tales From Watership Down?

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Re: Clover’s litter
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2018, 09:08:09 PM »
Possibly, yeah

Offline Thethuthinnang_Siddal

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Re: Clover’s litter
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2020, 07:10:58 PM »
Indeed, Clover's mate was Holly and Hyzenthlay's was Hazel. In this vein was where the new BBC TV series vexed me greatly; this fact was inverted and Holly was killed in the final battle. Had he not already suffered enough and Hyzenthlay too?

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Re: Clover’s litter
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2020, 07:21:00 PM »
I liked the way how the miniseries handled the shippings. More time with Hazel-Clover and Holly-Hyzen. True I can understand if a book fan vaxed on it I like the book too but really open to new ideas if they give it enough time like in the Netflix version.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 02:36:04 AM by Chipster-roo »

Offline Thethuthinnang_Siddal

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Re: Clover’s litter
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2020, 07:43:59 PM »
I liked the way how the miniseries handled the shippings. More time with Hazel-Clover and Holly-Hyzen. True I can understand if a book fan vaxed on it I like the book too but really open to new ideas if they give it enough time like in the Netflix version.

I have never heard those ship names before... I just think I prefer the original film, because it is so much closer to the book. I suppose also the new TV series was a lot more lovey-dovey, because it had been re-adapted for children. Although, in the wild, rabbits mate to have lots of kittens and to ensure that their warrens thrive, they don't 'fall in love' as humans do.  :)

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Re: Clover’s litter
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2020, 11:04:25 PM »
Although, in the wild, rabbits mate to have lots of kittens and to ensure that their warrens thrive, they don't 'fall in love' as humans do.  :)

Absolutely, this is the way how I think too.
The miniseries is an adaptation and I never want to get the exact same experience like the sorce material because if I want that I just read the book. Of course it's just my subjective opinion and I really don't like the line in the series when Clover said "I love you". However when Holly and Hyzen talked they made it much more... natural. I know Rabbits not like this but its first in an emotional motion picture for humans. I do like the way how they making time with the characters. Not perfect but I really wanted like the Epilogue scene with Fiver. Those not in the book but really good ideas (I think).
 :thethuthinnang
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 02:36:13 AM by Chipster-roo »

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Re: Clover’s litter
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2020, 04:23:00 AM »
There have been some theories that the changes for the miniseries couples, was because James McAvoy and Anne-Marie Duff (Hazel and Hyzenthlay's voice actors) were married at the time the cast was announced, but divorced soon afterwards.  This is all speculation though.

The Holly/Hyzenthlay relationship gets more development than Clover/Hazel and feels more realistic, which makes Holly's death even more tragic. (I'm not much of a fan of Clover/Hazel)

One thing I wonder though: do Hazel and Clover have kittens in the miniseries?  I remember the epilogue showed Bigwig and Strawberry's kittens, and also Bluebell's (no idea who the mother is though), but I don't know if any others show up.
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Re: Clover’s litter
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2020, 10:56:10 AM »
One thing I wonder though: do Hazel and Clover have kittens in the miniseries?  I remember the epilogue showed Bigwig and Strawberry's kittens, and also Bluebell's (no idea who the mother is though), but I don't know if any others show up.

I think they had kittens there is ten kits at Bluebell in the Epilogue, 3 from Bigwig-Strawberry, 2 from Blurbell-unnamed doe. The others probably from Hazel-Clover and might be Dandelion-Hyzen but it's just a theory. And interesting but I don't really see Hawkbit on the Epilogue shot. There is Fiver, might be Hawkbit but his fur is darker, Dandelion, Hyzenthlay, Bluebell, Bigwig, Strawberry, Clover, Blackberry, unnamed rabbit and Blackavar.



Bluebell's mate is probably this doe.



The McAvoy-Duff theory is interesting. However I think an animation is making for years and the script is written far earlier then the animators and voice actors doing their jobs. Probably they thought Hazel met Clover is better to develop connection between them like Holly-Hyzen. It was more understandable and I can accept that.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 02:36:21 AM by Chipster-roo »

Offline Thethuthinnang_Siddal

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Re: Clover’s litter
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2020, 06:40:32 PM »
Although, in the wild, rabbits mate to have lots of kittens and to ensure that their warrens thrive, they don't 'fall in love' as humans do.  :)

Absolutely, this is the way how I think too.
The miniseries is an adaptation and I never want to get the exact same experience like the sorce material because if I want that I just read the book. Of course it's just my subjective opinion and I really don't like the line in the series when Clover said "I love you". However when Holly and Hyzen talked they made it much more... natural. I know Rabbits not like this but its first in an emotional motion picture for humans. I do like the way how they making time with the characters. Not perfect but I really wanted like the Epilogue scene with Fiver. Those not in the book but really good ideas (I think).
 :thethuthinnang

Yeah, that line miffed me too! Seemed very 'Disneyified', I suppose. But of course I do appreciate that it is an adaptation and thus by its very nature it is somewhat adapted from the original source material. :)

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Offline Thethuthinnang_Siddal

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Re: Clover’s litter
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2020, 06:45:58 PM »
There have been some theories that the changes for the miniseries couples, was because James McAvoy and Anne-Marie Duff (Hazel and Hyzenthlay's voice actors) were married at the time the cast was announced, but divorced soon afterwards.  This is all speculation though.

The Holly/Hyzenthlay relationship gets more development than Clover/Hazel and feels more realistic, which makes Holly's death even more tragic. (I'm not much of a fan of Clover/Hazel)

One thing I wonder though: do Hazel and Clover have kittens in the miniseries?  I remember the epilogue showed Bigwig and Strawberry's kittens, and also Bluebell's (no idea who the mother is though), but I don't know if any others show up.

Yeah, I hadn't thought about that actually.

When I said the mates were flipped, I meant only that. We definitely did not see all of the kittens on-screen. :)

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